In all of fandom, few enigmas are greater than George R.R. Martin and his unfinished A Song of Ice and Fire series, and perhaps no disappointment is deeper than the ending of HBO’s Game of Thrones.
The show’s finale left a bitter taste for many, sparking endless speculation about the future of the books and Martin’s involvement in the television adaptations.
In a rare interview, I spoke with someone who might know more about these mysteries than anyone but perhaps Martin himself: Elio Garcia, the co-author on The World of Ice and Fire and The Rise of the Dragon and who (along with his wife) serves as the series’ official fact checkers and lore keepers.
Joining me on my YouTube channel and podcast, CultureScape, during our roughly 90 minutes together, Garcia revealed a wealth of new information about Martin, the Game of Thrones series, and the current state of the HBO adaptations, including House of the Dragon, the failed pilots, and the drama behind the scenes.
[This interview was edited for clarity.]
Unfortunately for fans, our interview revealed a bit of bad news, as Garcia confirmed what many fans have long suspected regarding the Game of Thrones series’ planned sixth entyr: Martin is struggling with writer’s block, which is being compounded by his involvement in numerous projects and a relatively new perfectionist streak that often stalls progress.
“I think what’s happened more so than sidetracking himself with other building of the details,” Garcia explained. “It’s as he’s become more and more perfectionist. He writes so much but throws it away in the end because it’s a dead end, or it doesn’t meet what he feels it should be. I think that more than anything has been a problem for him. If he didn’t care so much, he could probably just shrug his shoulders about it.”
When asked about the likelihood of The Winds of Winter ever being completed, Garcia didn’t sugarcoat his answer, telling me that, unfortunately, most of the story’s roadmap exists only in Martin’s head, so if something were to happen to the author, his fans might be “out of luck.”
However, there is one notable asterisk to this unfortunate possibility.
“I think I recall him saying, well, if it was like the [Robert] Jordan situation,” Garcia said. “Jordan knew he was sick for quite a while. While he was very sick, he knew it was terminal, and arrangements started to be made for someone else to write it. George has indicated that if he knew he had a terminal illness, he would probably try to make arrangements. I know of a couple of writers, one or two, that he has talked about in other contexts who might be able to write adjacent material if he didn’t have time to do it. I guess those writers would be the ones he’d approach and say, ‘Hey, can you carry this over the finish line?’”
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When I asked Garcia for insight as to what might be holding the author back, he pointed out that the HBO situation surrounding House of the Dragon hasn’t gone the way that GRRM had long hoped and he is deeply disappointed by how the show has developed (these frustrations were made apparent by the author in a recent and quickly deleted blog post).
“I think he’s doing his best,” Garcia said. “That post about HBO stuff revealed another problem: things have not necessarily gone the way he wanted with that side of things. And that has been a huge stressor.”
He then recounted a conversation he had with Martin during this summer’s World Science Fiction Convention in Glasgow, where the author discussed his concerns about the direction of House of the Dragon.
“I had lunch with George at Worldcon in August. He told me he was planning to post about House of the Dragon. He shared some things that he posted and some things he has not,” Garcia recalled. “I suggested, ‘Are you sure you want to post about it, George?’ But he said, ‘Yeah.’ I think his feeling is that things aren’t going the way he wants, and he has tried behind the scenes to fix it by talking to the writers and HBO. It hasn’t worked. So maybe if he talks about it publicly, they’ll take it more seriously.”
Garcia offered more specifics about Martin’s frustrations with HBO.
One issue is how showrunner HBO made the proto-romantic relationship of Alicent and Rhaenyra the focus of the story, at the expense of other characters. As Martin himself put it, this was a major example of the “butterfly effect”, which sees key plotlines and characters cut out in such a way that it leads to pivotal moments being diluted.
For example, the character Jacaerys (“Jace”) Velaryon, Rhaenyra’s heir, has been sidelined in the show, even though his role is critical in the source material, Fire and Blood.
“I thought it was really important that Jace not be shunted to the side because what happens down the line with him depends on having a strong connection to the character,” opined Garcia. “I don’t think a lot of viewers are going to have that connection.”
Garcia also lamented the reduced presence of Corlys Velaryon, played by Steve Toussaint, in season two.
“Corlys had such a strong presence in the first season. Now, he’s kind of retreated into the background, and that’s sad,” Garcia said. “He’s been sidelined for the same reason that Jace has — because Rhaenyra has become more central to their version of the story than she is in this part of Fire and Blood.”
Another point of frustration for Garcia is the portrayal of Daemon Targaryen, played by Matt Smith. While Garcia praised the actors and production design, he acknowledged that there is real frustration within the Martin camp about some of the creative choices. However, Garcia clarified that fans shouldn’t blame the showrunners, Ryan Condal or Sarah Hess, but rather HBO itself.
“I can promise you, [Ryan Condal] has absolutely proven his bona fides to me. He’s a real fan of the books and has been for a long time,” Garcia said. “But George is not his boss. HBO is his boss. So some of the issues, some of the differences of opinion, have to do with the network pulling the show in different directions.”
Despite these frustrations, there is some good news in the world of George R.R. Martin, as Garcia expressed optimism about the upcoming live-action adaptation of Martin’s Dunk and Egg short stories, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms.
“George was very effusive about it,” I was told. “He visited the set for several days and told me directly that it was very faithful. He had no concerns about it. He liked it a lot and thought the actors were fantastic.”
Garcia also shared some behind-the-scenes stories about failed HBO pilot pitches. Beyond the infamous Blood Moon — which Garcia consulted on — there were some truly wild ideas for Game of Thrones spinoffs that never made it to production.
“Someone pitched a story about the Seven being an A-Team-style squad of characters,” he revealed.” Another pitch had Aegon the Conqueror as a drunken idiot whose sisters made him look great. I’m glad those didn’t happen.”
The interview covered a wide range of topics, from Garcia’s favorite Game of Thrones-related video game mod to addressing the accusations of racism against him and his wife, but ultimately, it concluded with my guest reflecting on his hopes for not just The Winds of Winter, but also the rest of the A Song of Ice and Fire series.
“George is trying as best he can with all the other things floating around in the Game of Thrones universe,” Garcia asserted. “A day doesn’t go by where I don’t think about these books. I’ve spent 25, 26 years talking about them. I’ve received tens of thousands of hours of entertainment from this series. I hope I’ll get even more. But if I don’t, it’s given me so much. And I think a lot of fans feel the same way.”